Beezone Interview with Julie Anderson
(Formerly Kanya Samarpana Remembrance)
Beezone: I want to ask you about your understanding of the insider and outsider position that people who are interested in Adi Da have. My understanding is that there is a call by Adi Da to enter into a relationship with him in a formal way. Thousands of people have done that over the many years, over the 40 years since he started his formal teaching work. But very few have been willing, able, or chosen to stay in a formal relationship to him or the fellowship. When you look at the history of his work and the response people, have had over the 40 so years my guess based on the numbers I have seen only 3% of the people who have had at one time or another a formal relationship to the community have remained, in some way form or fashion. Those who have left are now considered outside of his company and no longer formally considered part of his leela.
In the broader understanding of Adi Da, there’s no inside/outside in relationship to Adi Da. But within the formal gathering, and it can be pointed to in his literature, there is a formal process that is called for. So, I want to ask you what your understanding is of the inside or the formal relationship to the gathering and then, therefore, Adi Da, and I’m not saying they’re the exact same thing, but I’m just going to go with the generally accepted dharma which is there are the outsiders who are not formally acknowledged*. What is your understanding of the inside formal process and the informal outside process? Could you bring some clarity to that?
*There is the Adi Da Foundation but that is fundamentally a ‘concept model’ – Beezone
Julie: You mean positions that “insiders and outsiders” apparently have! (laughing) As you alluded to “there is no inside or outside” in Reality truth! Yet I feel I understand this important and complex question. Ahh yes…. the call in Adi Da’s teaching that reads: “necessarily formal”! At first it can seem that this question is simply about clarifying two existing categories of response. Yet I sense you may be pointing to more complexity than just a simple technical clarification. This probably need not be said, yet here it is: whatever response I can offer is based on practice in relationship to Adi Da, study of His teaching, (including study of various aspects of other religious and spiritual traditions) and direct experience and interaction with many practitioners over the years. You will have to make your own judgment as to whether or not what I say is clarifying! More importantly is that hopefully what I am saying is not revisionism of Adi Da’s teaching and process!
“The devotional relationship to Me does not begin simply when people formally enter the gathering of My devotees.”
Spoken Communications Given by Avatar Adi Da Samraj to the Ruchira Sannyasin Order, February 2008
My Position is one of being associated with everybody. My Presence here is related to everybody Priorly, Always Already, and Constantly— everybody-all-at-once, and (also) every single one. That is My Position in the world. And that is why I must be Set Apart from the organizational dimension of Adidam. I must be associated with unique mechanisms that always keep Me in direct relationship to everybody in the world. I must not be defined by institution, cult, or corporation, not subordinated to anyone whatsoever. I Am here to be receiving—and also to Address—everybody.“
Avatar Adi Da Samraj, May 31, 2008
As you were asking the question, I was already thinking of the many different ways to consider it. One that strikes most profound is how Adi Da endured and suffered our errors in not understanding Him and His unique seventh stage revelation. This abuse led to a cultic approach to Him, one another and all others.
There are many nuances to this sacred relationship and process and culture that must be rightly fully supported, established, and served for the formal ways of participating to be auspiciously effective. This is so for any individual to fulfill their heart impulse of awakening and likewise for the culture of response to embody His Form to serve as what He calls “Instrumentality.” Particularly given that Adi Da has physically passed on this integrity is crucial.
There’s a way to respond to your question that speaks to when He was physically alive and then there’s also a way to relate to your question post-Mahasamadhi. This dialog and the various ways to consider it may end up covering a few sessions!
I assume your question reflects a conundrum and genuine heart question of many. I can also immediately feel several similar stories from the past, in my own experience with Him and others. Even very recent experiences can be useful to speak of with you that will address your question.
When Adi Da was alive, the process of access was very fluid. His way of manifesting and revealing Himself and His way of working with people changed a lot over the years. As it likewise did so in terms of access and non-access, various levels of practice, and the forms of association and the different congregations of association coming into being.
It was always very fluid, and it was necessary that way because He had to Work that way spontaneously for the genuine spiritually transcendental unfolding demonstration of his own 7th stage revelation process.
And then after His Mahasamadhi, there’s been an attempt on the part of some devotees to formalize the process more and more in part because of the clauses in the Teaching, that you’re pointing to, where He says there has to be a “necessarily formal” relationship and involvement. Such formality acknowledges and then establishes anyone who responds to Him in a specific particular form of access, association and practice depending upon the congregation that one is initiated into.
I have always noticed over the years – having been in a very intimate relationship to Him – and then the gradual change to someone who has apparently been on the outside of the formal gathering, is that whatever form of relationship you have with Him, He wanted you to know that this relationship was based on a serious commitment and a bond and a sacred vow in relation to Him, in connection to the Divine Reality Process.
“All of My Purposes that depended soley, basically solely on My Own Work My Own Effort here, My Own Submission here, have been essentially accomplished. All aspects of My Purpose that depended on response, on devotees, had except in some rudimentary terms, not been accomplished“
Adi Da Samraj, February 16, 2005
Julie: He also clearly stated (even the day of His Mahasamadhi) that the collective response to His Work and Gifts was only rudimentary, at best a beginning foundation. Which in itself, if rightly understood, is significant.
He also made very clear that there were no individuals (not anyone… “insider or outsider,” status, position or role, practicing member of any congregation) that He acknowledged as anything beyond a “student beginner.” This is a significant statement made to everyone. His assessment of devotees response (or lack of) regardless of how it may have previously appeared is very clear. This is not negative if rightly understood.
The “insider/outsider dynamic” has been and still is a theatre of ego politics that is not being openly addressed, understood, gone beyond, and healed. This obstructs natural, etheric, and spiritual energy conductivity in all responsive individuals and as a collective – regardless of being an apparent insider or outsider.
Beezone:There are three groups of people that I know. I know people who have had formal and also intimate relationships with Adi Da formally and have stayed in that process. I know people who have had that relationship and then therefore left. And then somehow the understanding is that these people from the inside, here I’m speaking from the inside, no longer have a direct connection to Adi Da but in their life, they feel they have. And then some people have never had a personal or a formal relationship to Adi Da, who have found his literature, a video or found a talk and have set up their own understandings through whatever their readings are. They are outside of any kind of community, dialogue, or guidance or anything like that, have set up their own meditation, their puja or study and feel that they have a personal relationship to Adi Da.
So there are three primary groups of people. I’ve met all three, and I can’t tell the difference myself in the speech of the people and even in the life of many of the people. They do formally practice. They do have a heart connection to their understanding of who Adi Da is. So because you have a particularly unique experience, you have been in that formal, intimate relationship to Adi Da and then you have left or been removed out of that, but you’ve never lost the connection to Adi Da.
But in the eyes of the people in the gathering, but never in the eyes of Adi Da – I may make a distinction there – in the eyes of the gathering, have somehow don’t seem to have, the same connection. You apparently have left the relationship and the gathering and therefore are no longer – from their point of view – have anything to say that is valid.
Julie: Yes, I understand. Some individuals feel that way about me, and others do not, some may not know what to feel or think! Personally, every imaginable notion has passed through my own being! Words that come to mind that have been used before are “on hold,” dramatizing, dissident or detractor. And somehow, in some eyes, I have betrayed Him or dishonored Him. The category that Adi Da established where devotees were “on hold,” I am not sure if this is still understood and made use of.
Beezone: So you actually have been seen as treasonous? You have defected? From the group?
Julie: Yes. Many words with various negative connotations have been used to describe myself and practitioners who have left formal practice within the formal gathering.
Recently I’ve been jokingly calling myself a “conscientious objector”! Not so funny, is it?
There are all sorts of different reasons why people have chosen to do something different in their lives instead of remaining close to Adi Da or in the gathering. We could make a very long list!
Too intense, too demanding, too difficult, hard to follow, not wanting a Guru after all, not trusting, seen something that disturbed them, too crazy, cannot tithe, does not want to live the disciplines, could not meditate, changed too often around Him, offended, did not wish to engage devotional asana, sickness, could not understand teaching, did not like the wild parties, did not want to be celibate, did not want to make a vow, doesn’t like the gathering of devotees, did not want to embrace asana of devotion, talking school preferences, cultism, politics, familial reasons, or just a sense of needing to go through different processes of growth, felt they would prefer independence, did not like living cooperatively, decided just to study and not practice, being drawn towards something that is different than Adi Da, maybe even another teacher, or also perhaps themselves becoming teachers, having a passion for being involved in some sort of social or humanitarian cause. Oh, and did not like the formalities!
People who also did perhaps have a reaction to what occurred in Adi Da’s company that inspired some sort of significant crisis for them. There are many, many reasons. People who felt like either they may have been betrayed or even victimized. People who felt that certain injustices were done.
All of these individuals who were involved and then left or even people who may not also have been involved but have some sort of response yet have never chosen to be formally engaged They have been categorized as what you’re indicating as an “outsider”, even at times referred to as “bad company” or somebody who might not actually really get what’s going on because they are no longer on the “inside”. It is quite obnoxious, actually. This can honestly be said because I am speaking about myself here. I have dramatized both character patterns, the seemingly polar opposites. Both attitudes are symptomatic of the activity of the ego, recoil in relationship. Not open-hearted compassionate relatedness.
Coincidentally, the reasons for leaving that were just noted also can be the very reasons for why a responsive individual may choose to not enter into a formal relationship to Adi Da or Adidam, to begin with!
Beezone: Right. So I may ask you now that since you were … Now, if I’m not mistaken, you have never in any way, form, shape, or color, felt in your personal … Because after you left the personal company of Adi Da in 1993, if I’m not mistaken.
Beezone: ’92. You maintained a personal relationship to Adi Da up until, if I’m not mistaken, to his Mahasamadhi, you have never felt that in any way, shape, form or color from him but only from the gathering.
Julie: Yes, yes. That’s interesting that you’re asking me this question because this morning when I sat in meditation, part of the meditation I knew that we were going to have this conversation. In this asana the first thing that came forth was remembering what He said to me, on the island, on the front veranda of Hymns To Me and as He was Blessing me to leave in 1992. We were hugging one another and He whispered in my ear, “Never forget that our relationship is a spiritual one,” and I said back to him, “I promise I will never dishonor you.” And so that my personal answer to the question. That’s the nature of my relationship with Him and that has never ceased to be the case. This was after 16 years of intensive sadhana in direct intimate service to Him every day. This is important to say because each individuals relationship would need to be considered differently so they can be served rightly.
Beezone: You have recently returned to your home in Australia after visiting California and visiting with a number of people in the formal gathering of Adi Da at a high level of their organization, correct?
Julie: Yes. There is an RSO office, presently consisting of two – this office has been held by varying numbers over time- mature long time devotees who served this function in direct relationship to Adi Da prior to and since His mahasamadhi. They serve, with others who are meant to support and hold them accountable, a specific important role of formal governance according to His specific written words. However, as He made very clear to the entire formal gathering, not yet fully advanced practitioners within the Ruchira Sannyasin Order – of which He stated He was the only one thus far..
At present the auspicious integrity and effectiveness of this formal office and the entire Adidam leadership – and thus collective formal responsive gathering of devotees- is still in a process of “finding It’s feet” so to speak.
As your question points to things are not perfect, nor will they every be, as Adidam – in its infancy now has many challenges. These challenges include and are not limited to the demonstration of integrity and integration which will require the necessary and inevitable purification, further alignment, and hopefully growth.
Beezone: This process seems to be the responsibility of the collective gathering since, if you will, the ‘north star’ has become invisible and now only a “truly spiritual” culture must emerge. As my first teacher told used to say, “It’s up to you ladies and gentleman”.
Julie: A clarifying transformation in the dynamic of respected leadership and its formal following is key to the understanding and undoing of this “insider/outsider” oedipal, social and political drama that we are pointing to here. As it has been described as “the elephant in the room” that few want to address and many fear to acknowledge, while others reactively meditate on who the victims or the scapegoats are! For some ignorance is bliss, as it is said, and some ignore, cope and pray. There is a greater need for deepened heart open dialog and real consideration to come into being for a quickened clarifying transformation of this crippling dynamic to manifest. There is no doubt this must and will happen given the Divine Reality is the context of this emerging instrumentality.
This will happen because truly human and spiritually transcendental laws are at play here, just as they have always been in Adi Da’s person and work. Ego’s can be fooled and deluded, but being as Conscious Light cannot. Effortlessly so. These are Adi Da’s unique siddhis of Divine Self recognition, emergence and accomplishing power.
“It’s up to you. But it must be accomplished, and there’s no way out of it, none!“
Adi Da Samraj, August 11, 1987
Beezone: You were recently in California for a period of time taking care of elderly parents. In between your responsiblities you also had personal connections with many of your old ‘guru-bais”. You also had communications with the members RSO or the Renunciate Order*, correct?
*The Ruchira Sannyasin Order is the body of Avatar Adi Da’s most advanced devotees who have chosen to consecrate their lives utterly to Him and His Way by embracing the life of formal renunciation, in the circumstance of perpetual retreat. Avatar Adi Da has designated the Ruchira Sannyasin Order as the senior cultural authority with the gathering of His devotees both during and after His physical Lifetime. Thus, it is the unique responsibility of the Ruchira Sannyasin Order to function both as the extension of His Sacred Authority and His Instrumentality (or the collective human conduit for His Spiritual Blessing). – Adidam Glossary
Beezone: In reference to what you were just sayng, if I’m not mistaken, their understanding of your reationship to Adi Da and Adidam is different, Is that correct?
Julie: In one sense, yes.
Beezone: But, also there’s another sense?
Julie: I think that it goes back to the conversation that we’ve been having for quite a while now which is that there’s many levels of process going on simultaneously that seem to be in opposition to one another.
There’s is the level of purification that is occurring and then there is the process occurring at a depth level, deeper than what’s seeming, What I mean by that is because I know it in my own case and that’s really what I can only speak of clearly with certainly, is not only about me. As he points out, ‘the pattern patterning” at the individual level and also the collective. The process is occurring at a depth no matter what it appears to look like.
It is true that some individuals may feel somehow or other that I have become an outsider by virtue of the fact that I left the situation of being right in his palace, living with him and serving him there with those who have been and a few of them who still are in key levels of responsibility within the gathering. And a large number of people who were around him in that same fashion are no longer doing so. Some of them are in the same situation that I’m in and appear to be outsiders and some of them are still in the gathering and they’re spread all over the globe doing different things.
But I know for certain that for any one of those individuals, that there is still a depth, a spiritual depth, intimacy with Adi Da. And in that relationship with him, he himself accomplished that. That didn’t have anything to do with our doing. It’s about the work of the divine person in reality manifesting here and continuing to unfold, continuing to brighten, in the context of the eagle patterns and forms. There’s continuing the process of purification.
So those who presume at the present moment that there is an inside and an outside, I honestly, truly believe that that is naivete and a misunderstanding in relationship to the study of his transmission and the divine reality in being. There is no inside and outside at all in relationship to the all-inclusive, divine reality. Yet, yet there are structures and forms that are taking responsibility for and in the process of attempting to establish integrity in relationship to his work and what he accomplished while he was alive. And I would say, and many would agree with this, that it’s still in very rudimentary form and not matured by any means.
So I would say that what would more realistically represent what is manifest at the present time is a group of people who appear to be inside and outside, I don’t think it has anything to do with just insiders. I think it has to do with the entire collective of all who have responded to him. We’re all going through a process of purification to authenticate the response to him in terms of what he accomplished.
So the ability for the secondary structures that are necessary in response to the primary process of the spiritual one and ultimately doesn’t even have a form because it is prior to, it’s non-conditional. The real process occurs prior to that which is the fundamental process. Everything else is secondary to that. So those of us and those who are either apparently inside or apparently outside, we’re all involved in the same process which is accomplishing power but there are still differences in terms of the way people are associating and relating to it based upon where their attentions are.
When the attention falls, according to this pre-designed patterns of egoity that are still being purified. So some people are attempting to, as apparent insiders, try to create structures of access and formalities to protect the treasures and to bring into being what they felt his instruction was relative to how the gathering should appear as a culture or as a mission or as an institution or as the body of those who are responsible for the primary treasures. There’s all sorts of different levels of association and responsibility.
When you think the hundreds of individuals who established a direct relationship with him within his lifetime, they feel an ardent responsibility to varying degrees to authenticate that in relationship with words. And then there are a large number of people who have the same form of association with him who, then, are saying, “But wait a minute. That’s not quite right.” And those are the ones that I call conscientious objectors. So there is inevitably this juxtaposition between those that are trying to attempt to do something according to what they feel are his words, and others who are saying that’s not quite right.
Well, that has been eternally happening in relationship to ego. And then there’s also those who have never had a formal association but feel that their lives have been touched by Adi Da informally, and don’t even want to have anything to do with this organization because they can’t agree with this conflict and, for whatever reason, they’re finding they don’t want to have anything to do with it because it’s too messy. Well, my observation would be that we’re all in the same boat.. It’s all a process of purification of ego processes no matter where you find yourself in the depth process..
Beezone: The process you refer to, purification, requires entering into a process that has a cleansing and also painful, or “heat” as he calls in tapas, that there’s a state, there’s a consideration entered into that you, by tendency wouldn’t normally … you’re basically going against pattern of your previous egoic structure.
Beezone: I guess what I’m saying or trying to get at is that this purification process doesn’t happen on its own. There has to be a process by which people can enter into where you talk about the people who are rightly maintaining a structure and a form, and then you have the people who you refer to as “conscientious objectors” in a humorous way. What I also see in my own dialogue with various people within the community and those on the periphery or people who are just playing along with this conflict which exists. It’s almost like the elephant in the room.
The purification in my understanding doesn’t happen until these two positions, if you will, come together, have some interaction other than a standoff of mutual respect and mutual disrespect. You’re just going alone. So this purification process has to have an avenue of consideration. It has to be acknowledged. It has to be brought into, as he says, “The business has to be handled.” Nothing can just be left to its own devices. This is what I believe to be a relationship not only to him but a relationship to one another.
Julie: Yes, absolutely right. What you’re saying is completely true. That’s what true consideration is.
Julie:That’s what real consideration is. That’s what reality consideration is, which we’ve touched on previously. And I’m not referring to what was called reality consideration during his teaching years, specifically, but reality consideration that is obliged to be in direct relationship with him and one another as a process in relationship, precisely what you said. The reason why nothing has been effective in resolving this apparent conflict is that it appears to me that … I don’t even know how to get my head around this. Obviously, it’s that consideration seems to be not allowed, like there’s no real dialogue happening at this level.
Beezone: At the present time there’s no call or willingness for the people, if you will, in positions of responsibility to want to have a dialogue. Is that what I hear you saying?
Julie: No, no. Well, that’s my own personal experience is that in the attempt to be able to understand what has happened since Mahasamadhi. If there are questions or objections they are not allowed to be discussed openly.. At some level, I’m sure there is dialogue that is happening about practical matters. I can’t know for sure if that that’s not happening. But I was not allowed any dialogue, so I can’t say..
Beezone: No, but in your personal experience you have encountered that attitude and I can make reference to one conversation you recently had with an individual with high cultural standing discarded what you were bringing up regarding this dynamic. I believe you heard, “Oh, that’s just gossip. That’s not true. That’s just what people are saying. That has nothing to do with the case.” There wasn’t even an acknowledgment that there was some form of, let’s just say, purification that needed to be entered into or a consideration had to be addressed. What you were bring was completely disregarded.
Julie: Yeah. No, sadly it’s really honestly true in my direct experience. I haven’t had a chance to have a real conversation, not based upon an assumption of trying to cause a problem or wanting to rock the boat or trying to insert people who are in positions of responsibility. Just wanting to have a real conversation because some things are not making sense to me and do not feel at all lawful, according to what I understood to be his instructions. And to attempt to have that conversation I was told that this did not happen, they did not want to talk with me about it, and the conversation was brought to an end. I’m no longer even able to have a dialogue with these individuals anymore.
Beezone: If I’m not mistaken you didn’t bring this issue to them. I mean you didn’t initiate this kind of dialogue. This had been brought to you over the time your interview on Beezone began. This is what manifested out of honest, heartfelt inquiry to clarify and make connections to many individuals who you have had a lifetime of personal and spiritual connection with. So, this was your discovery. This isn’t something that you came into with a position. This is your discovery and you wanted some clarification.
Julie: That was my discovery. Very much so because I reached out my hand in a genuine assumption that it would be met by another welcoming hand based upon the process. I never assumed resistance in the years that I was no longer actively formally involved in the gathering. I actually was blessed by Adi Da to take a step back and do what I needed to do to attend to my own wellbeing and clarity around the processes that had occurred with him. He’d left everything that I had done including where I was living and what I was involved in terms of my business and my life circumstance up to the moment of his Mahasamadhi. I never felt that I was out of relationship with him in terms of anything that was occurring.
But in my own processes I’ve described, there was purification that was occurring and that’s in the context of significant history of relationship to him. So there was a period of time where there were people who, like myself, would take time out or would be given instruction by Adi Da to go and do this. Oftentimes people were said to be on hold, meaning that they weren’t formally, actively participating in the ways that devotees were in the context of the ashram as a sanctuary of within households and communities or whatever.
But there was always an acknowledgment that a relationship was still the context of that [inaudible 00:31:57] that perhaps they weren’t participating in the formal way. Yet, that being said, and this individual who has been gone like myself and engaged in some other life circumstance, still, every aspect of the relationship of the life, from meditation, to puja, to study, to consideration, to association, forms of association with devotees. And it was not listed in exactly the same way. And there were also periods of time where I intentionally relinquished various forms of practice and ritual of the secondary aspects as a consideration itself.
Now, obviously, Adi Da has addressed in all of us that we can … times of the process. In terms of deluding ourselves in relationship to this matter of so-called purification that you’ve got to go do something in order to understand it or to purify. Well, there are subtle nuances to that. And as you indicated earlier, the context within which that actually becomes fruitful is if you are doing something counter egoic in the midst of that ordeal and also you are doing it in relationship, in emotional relationship, to others who are able to reflect things to you. So those elements are really key to the process of purification. There has to be dialogue about
What it is that’s being considered. And clarity about purification comes about in that context where there is counter-egoic application to this process, this primary process and all the secondary aspects. And it does get magnified and thickened if you are embracing it all most intensively.
Beezone: It seems that, although in principle … I mean, I hear you, and this is why, if you will, when Adi Da was present, he could address these, if you will, nuances were he could send somebody outside the gathering for a particular reason that nobody understood, whether it be going to a Christian, unwed mother’s home or whatever, which would never be allowed if that person were to do something on their own like that. So there was always this guidance, if you will, during his presence, during his incarnation. So after his Mahasamadhi that, then, was relegated to more mature practitioners to take on those responsibilities of a spiritual matter. But since there were never any acknowledged advanced practitioners, now there was just pretty much the form that’s being created to hold the sacred structures that have been given in place.
So, since it’s only been a little bit more than 10 years since Mahasamadhi and since this is not just a one lifetime process, that this is an eternal process but also, in time, generational process. It seems that it’s only likely or necessary that the first form of the new incarnation of Adi Da be one of structure as opposed to process. Because of the need to hold in place the foundation of what they in their immaturity or rudimentary understanding, need to have in place. So then, over time, hopefully, that this more considered or mature or open, if you will, dialogue can be allowed because the foundation would be secure.
Julie: That’s a good way to look at it. Because that is what is happening and has happened is there is a significant focus on the structures and just basically being about to persist at a very rudimentary level and even just to survive. And that’s why I characterized it earlier as miraculous because it has survived because so many forces in the world are trying to push the light out, the brightness out. They don’t want it because it’s confronting and requires a surrender of position and point of view to something that is greater and selfless in terms of the need and desire of the ego, the persona that it’s seeking, the fulfillment in the wrong direction. That’s only ever going to end in death, not based on positive disillusionment, of understanding the nature of where we are at the present time.
One thing that you indicated about the person that Adi Da may have been or people who may have left people to various forms of life matters and handles business or whatever where they may have apparently left the formal gathering, it also wasn’t just his core devotees’ recommendation but it was also blessed by him for that to happen. Numerous people who find themselves in unusual situations that you would never think … And we knew them before or people who even knew me, it makes their head spin. Adi Da devotees, it makes their head spin thinking that I never thought that person would do that thing, as if they’d be involved in this. And yet Adi Da blessed them. He may have given them a kick in the pants, not actually physically but you know, a shout or whatever, given them a few words of instruction and maybe some criticisms or whatever, but when they left, they were always free to be able to leave and go do what they felt that they needed to do.
When this person, individuals would come up. I’ve been in conversations with him where I would observe devotees either being mocking or criticizing of such individuals and Adi Da wouldn’t have a [inaudible 00:39:11] with that. “Those are my devotees. You do not speak of them that way. That’s my business.” He would always advocate that it was for us to live what he described, in a sense being in the blessing disposition. Actually incarnating and practicing cooperation and tolerance and love and service and open-heartedness. Relinquishing the opponent disposition in relationship to everyone and everything
At the present time that’s what I don’t actually see manifesting in the dynamics between numerous individuals whether they’re insiders or outsiders. So bringing that full circle back to what we’re talking about relative to a process of effective consideration which really would bring about the purification and the clarification and a summary and understanding about how we function as a collective. There must be elements that are required for a dialogue in intimate devotional context of one another no matter what position or role or where you think you stand in relationship to the formalities of Adi Da or not. There’s needs to be a much wider dialogue for his work to come into being with integrity and authenticity and that’s just not being allowed at the present time.
It’s not good to say at all to be so generalized because I’m sure at various levels it is happening. Like, we’re having a dialogue. I’ve had this dialogue with numerous devotees that have been apparently insiders or outsiders for the last half a year of more quite intensively and finding that there are conversations that should be happening amongst one another that just simply are not allowed to happen within the formal structures of Adi Da. But this consideration is not part of the way anymore.
Beezone: Well, at the present time I couldn’t agree with you more because that, from my outside point of view, in my dialogue with many of the individuals within the gathering, I feel that’s absolutely true and also understood by many. I just want to stop. I want to stop right now because I think I want to get this on a piece of paper and transcribe it and I think there’s a lot here. If you’re not-
Julie: Okay. And just one other thing, though, that would be good to tie this in at some point, is how this all ties to … relative from prior unity. Cooperation and tolerance among devotees.
Beezone: Yeah. You mentioned that just earlier about two minutes ago.
Julie: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Beezone: Yeah. No, that’s the foundation.
Julie: Yeah, yeah. And just one other conversation that was brought to my attention in the hall this morning is the one that he had to me that I had mentioned in one of our other dialogue, that [inaudible 00:42:40], the one where he said to me, “I’m going to take you seriously now.” And he said, “You’re going to have to trust me beyond any apparent separation and even death.” And for a long time I felt that perhaps that death that he was addressing might have been my own but actually, I feel like I’m more understanding that it was his, Mahasamadhi.
An apparent separation is leaving his intimate sphere and yet, in retrospect, I’m realizing that the primacy of that dialogue in which he was telling me there was this testament was going to be required in the midst of this relationship, that it is only a spiritual one no matter how it has appeared. And so the fact that that is not a primacy of the way we consider the relationship with one another and yet this is an anathema, literally, of the process and the way. And so, yes, secondary structures are necessary, but you can’t ever take it out of that context from the secondary aspect of the way it comes, the context within which you make an evaluation or a judgment of one another in the context of this process.
Beezone: Well, that’s what he, if I’m not mistaken, he refers to his faith and trust. It’s the heart connection. Without that heart connection you are just in the mind forms of the duality of right and wrong. If you don’t have that heart you’re always gauging the outcome or the situation. But if you have that heart commitment and the trust that this is always a test.
Julie: Absolutely. And expound upon that devotional response, absolutely.
Beezone: And recognition of devotional response. Absolutely, absolutely. Without that it’s just what you said before.
Julie: Well, that’s the process. That is the process. Everything else is secondary.
Beezone: Right, right.
Julie: He securely established that through our attention in conversation and dialogue with one another. Only in our way is it going to have any opposition outcome has to be based upon that first and foremost. Acknowledge and worship and recognize in one another and that is what he said to me. Also in the conversation that I asked him about how was your guru form going to be manifested after your Mahasamadhi? He said, “As a collective. As a sangha in relationship to one another.” So that’s how we hold one another accountable and that’s where the shout and the blessing comes in that recognition with one another as this … But it’s the secondary aspect of the way that we relate to one another and how we hold one another accountable, it’s backwards. You’re putting the cart before the horse.
Julie: I just noticed but I think it’s backwards. And I have to say that because it’s really clear to me. And I also feel that I’m being moved to say that. And not as though there’s anything that I’m trying to tear down as a result of that.
Beezone: No, no. I don’t hear anything like that at all. I don’t hear anything like that at all.
Julie: But I wouldn’t feel like I’m actually practicing in the context of my relationship to him. I’m not actually doing what he’s moving me to do if I don’t say that. That’s where the passion lies. And that’s where the trust lies. So that I’m not afraid, I don’t feel afraid of things falling apart or if there has to be a necessary process of consideration. I’m not afraid of consideration. I went through a real consideration and continue to do so. I don’t care about positions.
Julie Anderson, 1980