DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, You were saying earlier that all
beings that have been are still alive.
SRI DA AVABHASA: In one form or another, in one place or
another within the great Mandala of the cosmos.
DEVOTEE: Was there a point in time when all these
separate things came into being in one moment? Perhaps
coincident with the Big Bang? Was there a point in time when
all these apparently separate things came into being, or is
it something that has progressed?
SRI DA AVABHASA: There are no eternal “souls”. Everything
is a modification of the very One. Such modifications must
occur conditionally in one manner or another, and they are
historical occurrences when viewed from the entire cosmos.
The entire Cosmic Mandala has a kind of history, but
obviously a very paradoxical one. There are many, many
levels of conditional reality within which appearances
occur. In asking your question, you are not thinking of
those levels of reality. You are not aware of them. You have
not experienced them. At least your present brain does not
allow you to know such experiences.
It is very difficult, and ultimately impossible, to make
sense out of all this from the point of view of the gross
brain-mind. Even the Big Bang is just an invention of the
common mind in this time and place in order to make sense
out of some observed phenomena, with many theories and
presumptions thrown in. But how much of reality altogether
is behind that presumption? Basically it is just a view of
the gross cosmos, which is only a feature of conditional
manifestation, a rather peripheral form, in fact. Even the
Big Bang does not account for the Source of conditional
existence. It accounts for certain physical realities only,
the multi-dimensional sources for everything that is seeming
DEVOTEE: You have also said to us that You are here until
all beings are Divinely Translated. In other words, You
would be the last one here.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Not in any conditional sense.
DEVOTEE: I understandI have a feeling for that. Are
there more conditional beings coming into being all the
SRI DA AVABHASA: It can be said so, and then again maybe
not! Both are true.
DEVOTEE: My other question is, in the traditions
especially it is said that the most valuable birth is a
human birth because it is as a human being that one can
Realize the entire process in one lifetime.
SRI DA AVABHASA: If there are gross conditional karmas
that must be purified, then a gross conditional birth is
necessary, even if some apparent personality is not
currently in the gross domain. It is not absolutely
inevitable that one must appear in gross form, because
purifications can occur in many ways. But it is generally
likely that a gross birth would occur.
DEVOTEE: Are many, many beings competing to have a human
SRI DA AVABHASA: Competing? You don’t have to compete to
have a human birth! You don’t have to stand in line!
KANYA SUPRITHI: [to the devotee who has been
speaking] I was thinking that your question to Sri
Gurudev related to the discussion we had earlier with Him
about our earliest religious beliefs that we tend to
superimpose on the Way of the Heart, for instance the idea
that everyone who has ever incarnated will continue to
incarnate and everyone will eventually be saved by waiting
at the gate to reincarnate. Because of our sense of separate
bodies, we regard everyone as the next chosen one. These
kinds of archaic childish beliefs we have gotten from
television and all the things that we have heard. It struck
me like that a little.
Look at the amoeba. How many amoebas are there? How many
molecules in the air? How many grains of sand? An
unfathomable number. It is not as if one can count infinite
bodies. And even the forms change. It is unfathomable.
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is said in the traditions that this
Maya cannot be comprehended, this appearance cannot be
figured in its totality, it cannot be perceived from any
limited point of view. But you want to constantly figure it
and make all this into some kind of intellectual package
that limits you to your own mind. You cannot truly
understand any of this great “consideration” from the point
of view of limitation. You can participate in it
meaningfully, but you cannot comprehend it, or tie it down,
or come up with a final description of it. To do so is
utterly impossible. This appearance here is multitudinously
infinite. It is beyond comprehension. It is beyond mind.
That is why the process of Realization is about the
transcendence of mindnot just the transcendence of
present thinking, thinking, thinking but mind altogether.
Most of mind is beyond your experience. Your brain shuts it
out. Just a little bit trickles in. And, by the way, all of
it must be transcended.
DEVOTEE: The main thing that prompted my question is that
if I fail to Realize the Divine in this lifetime, what are
the possibilities of my being reborn again in human form and
continuing to be Your devotee? That is one of the deepest
feelings I have.
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is inevitable, if the Law requires
DEVOTEE: The traditional point of view is that it is very
valuable to have a human birth. This seems to suggest that a
human birth is difficult to achieve.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Relative to all the other kinds of
births that are conceived to be possible, in other words
when compared to other kinds of births that are less than
human. It is said that it is a unique opportunity to be born
in human form in terms of other possible incarnations in the
gross realmamoebas, mosquitoes, foxes, whales,
gorillas, Neanderthals. Among them the most auspicious is
the human birth. The traditional pronouncement does not take
into account all the other possible kinds of what could be
incarnational forms within the entire expanse of the Cosmic
Mandala. The traditional notion is simply making a
comparison with, in general, gross forms of birth. And
therefore you are cautioned to “mind your Ps and Qs” so that
you will not take on a lesser form, since, from the point of
view of those traditions, it is presumed that a gross
rebirth is inevitable. Therefore, “mind your Ps and Qs” so
that your next birth will be a human one. That is the logic
of such pronouncements.
DEVOTEE: There is another aspect to it also, in the
actual physical event of human birth itself. Millions of
sperms struggle to enter one egg. I was wondering if there
is a correlation between the struggle of millions of sperms
to fertilize the egg and the struggle to achieve a human
SRI DA AVABHASA: They are not all deeper personalities
shooting for the egg! [Laughter.] They are just
gross manifestations not even really competing with one
another but driving home to the egg. You do not have a bunch
of deeper personalities in your balls who have to pay you a
couple of bucks to let them in! No. There are no deeper
personalities in the testicles of males. The deeper
personality becomes associated with an already joined unit
of reproduction, and only progressively so even in that
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: Does that have something to do with the
fact that sometimes there are miscarriages?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Many things that have to do with
DEVOTEE: But is that a possible reason, that there is no
deeper personality associated with the physical
SRI DA AVABHASA: It might be, or it might not be. The
joining of the sperm and the egg is not the manifestation of
the deeper personality, a being about to incarnate. The
association is progressive, and it occurs from a distance.
The deeper personality eventually joins. It is a very
mysterious matter, and there is not an absolute time frame
for it either.
KANYA NAVANEETA: Sri Gurudev, haven’t You said that Your
deeper personality did not associate with the gross
personality until after You were two years old?
SRI DA AVABHASA: In terms of the fullest agreement for
Incarnation. At about two years old or so, that is when the
conjunction was truly manifested.
KANYA NAVANEETA: And that is when the Sign of the
“Bright” truly manifested?
SRI DA AVABHASA: In this committed sense, but only
surrounding the body. Who was it yesterday who wanted Me to
talk about how to practice after death?
DEVOTEE: I was wondering how to find You again.
SRI DA AVABHASA: By practicing in this lifetime and
giving yourself up completely without even any limitations
that would make another birth. Your character and your life
altogether at death will determine the future. Throw
yourself to Me completely, and then the circumstance of your
practice will be revealed. You cannot account for it, so I
tell you what to do in this lifetime and up to the time of
death and at the moment of death. Adhering to My Instruction
is your business, not trying to prefigure the after-death
circumstance of your possible practice. Begin the process
with your practice in this lifetime. Otherwise your future
is a throw of the dice. And there are no guarantees.
DEVOTEE: Beloved Lord, could You not have been Incarnated
in the body of a woman?
SRI DA AVABHASA: In principle, but not very likely.
DEVOTEE: Because of what You need to Do to accomplish
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes. And because of what you know about
the Vehicle that preceded this Birth. Its characteristics
were profoundly masculine, not merely in human terms but
altogether, a penetrating force of influence, an
accomplishing power requiring like characteristics in the
body. In principle there could have been a birth in female
form, but not if you examine all the realities. They precede
the principle of mere possibility.
DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, these last few days here in Your
Company have been an extraordinary Revelation to me of Who
You Are in so many ways, beginning with the formal Darshan
that You so Graciously consented to Give to us on Thursday.
It was a remarkable occasion. And especially after this
conversation tonight. I cannot comprehend it, but I have
been feeling more the scope of Your Appearance and what a
Sacrifice it was. All my life I knew I was looking for
something. When I was in college, there was much attention
to people coming from India, but I could never relate to
them because they did not look like me and because they did
not speak English particularly well. When I first felt my
very strong heart-connection to You, it was because You look
like me and because you speak like me.
SRI DA AVABHASA: That does not mean that only white,
middle-class Americans can respond to Me truly. That is just
your particular inclination.
DEVOTEE: I can just feel in this moment what a Sacrifice
it has been for You. In some way I can feel what a Sacrifice
it has been for You to Incarnate like this.
DA AVABHASA: My Incarnation allows people such as you to
be included and no longer excluded. It does not mean,
however, that My Appearance here is exclusive in any sense
whatsoever. It is not.
DEVOTEE: I do not feel that it is. I can feel that I am
included. I remember the last time I was here in 1991, I was
sitting with You in one Darshan occasion at Indefinable. Up
until that point I had always thought that I had been
looking for You and that I had found You. And in this one
moment of sitting in front of You and feeling so
heart-penetrated by You, I realized that You had found me. I
am very grateful to be here right now, at this time.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Your seeking has not been successful! I
have had to come to all beings. The seeking of most is
mediocre, and the seeking of the best did not go all the
way. Therefore, all had to be found by Me, encountered by
Me, by virtue of a great Work, which is not a joke, not a
mere amusement, and not just casual nonsense to be gossiped
about by unserious people.
BRAHMACHARINI IO: Sri Gurudev, it seems to me that part
of Your Sadhana of experimenting and experiencing everything
was very necessary….
SRI DA AVABHASA: It was completely necessary.
BRAHMACHARINI IO: …because, as You said, through that
Demonstration You show all Your devotees the fruitlessness
of seeking. Experience like that was not something that
Vivekananda could really do, but it was really
DA AVABHASA: That is right. Vivekananda, that living man,
was associated with a particular tradition, a particular
teacher, and Hinduism. Of course, He did expand His view
beyond the limits of His tradition, but He was also
significantly limited by it, in that specific lifetime, in
that conjunction with His own gross personality and
circumstance. It did limit Him. It limited His perception of
His own Nature and Condition, which Ramakrishna pointed out
to Him. But the usefulness of that birth was that it brought
the potential Vehicle not merely into the cosmic
domainbecause he was already there, very highbut
into the grossest dimension of it. That Descent, and going
on from there, was the most important part of that
particular lifetime. It established that Vehicle in this
domain, this outer circle.
BRAHMACHARINI IO: Also, Your experiencing everything was
especially necessary in a time like this in the world,
because so many people who come to You who have experienced
SRI DA AVABHASA: Wellthey havent experienced
everything. But I have. They have experienced a little bit
of the lesser part. But they have not experienced
everything. They are amateurs at experiencing everything. My
experiencing of everything associated Me with them. I did
not merely experience everything in the grossest sense, but
everything altogether, in every sense. That was My
experience. You fools make the experiment of indulging in
gross nonsensical behavioror have done soand
illusions in mind, also of the gross kind. That is not much
of an experiment. And you repeat the same thing over and
over again and do not learn anything from itor did not
in your mere exercise of tendencies. That was not My
BRAHMACHARINI NAAMLEELA: You said that the karmas of
those who have been with You before, who had been with
Vivekananda, were more purified than the karmas of other
people. You have also said that people who are around You in
this Lifetime are purified of their karmas.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Purified of some, yes.
BRAHMACHARINI NAAMLEELA: If Your devotees are born after
this Lifetime, would their karmas be more purified in their
next lifetime as well?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Not necessarily. It depends on the
individual, on what kind of practice you do in My Company.
If you do real practice, at least to some significant
degree, well, then, yes, there is some diminution of karmic
DEVOTEE: Beloved Gurudev, when somebody brought a
question to You the other night, You said that after Your
Divine Translation You will not be floating around in the
subtle realms any more.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Not in the conditional realms at
DEVOTEE: You mention in The Knee of Listening the
experience of having Swami Nityananda take over Your body.
And I have had experiences of Your literally taking over my
SRI DA AVABHASA: Such experiences may continue after My
DEVOTEE: That is what I wanted to ask You.
SRI DA AVABHASA: This does not mean I have to continue in
some conditional form in order for people to have such
experiences. These are signs of your adaptation to Me. The
psyche boils over, the body-mind boils over, and all kinds
of forms appearvisions, dreams, thoughts,
experiencesall that will continue after the Lifetime
of This Body. If they occur, do not presume, however, that I
am still Manifesting just on the other side of the physical.
I am Merely Present, altogether, and those phenomena are
signs of purification only. As now.
DEVOTEE: Beloved Gurudev, You once told me that I could
not figure You out.
SRI DA AVABHASA: You try hard to do so by using your mind
to manufacture feelings of familiarity.
DEVOTEE: Beyond that I was also feeling thatas much
as I can perceive Who You Arethe Divine has never been
so fully Real, ever. Even Your Confession to us tonight of
Who You Are is remarkable to Me. And I was feeling that in
some sense the message of our mission is that the Divine has
never been so fully Real. Of course, that has to be artfully
communicated, but …
SRI DA AVABHASA: Whole-heartedly communicated! When you
say “artfully communicated”, you mean you are going to
diminish the mission in order to tailor whatever you are
going to say and do to the prejudices of the common world.
Simply say it the way it is, whole-heartedly, as My true
devotees who are really practicing. You are not beating
people over the head with it. You are just making your
confession, that is all. And those who can respond will do
so. Many who would respond will not if you diminish the Word
of your mission and the Sign of your mission, and try to
tailor it to what you presume to be the common
Why would you want to do that? Nobody else does it. No
other religious institutions diminish their communication of
who they presume their leader or master is. Why do you all
want to do it? Why are you all so busy suppressing your own
mission? It is one of the unique characteristics of this
gathering that you do not want to tell it the way it is. You
do not want to do it the way it is. Other institutions and
their missions do not do so. Why do you think you have to do
I notice that Kanya Navaneeta is pointing at these albums
that she and others put together. Okaywe can talk
about whatever is useful, but I have said essentially what I
have to say about My connection to Vivekananda. The rest is
there for you to study, to find the correspondences and the
likenesses. I have said what is essential to say, and all
the rest that follows is your business.
KANYA NAVANEETA: I was looking in these to see if they
prompted any questions, and they did. Sri Gurudev, this is a
verse from Your shorter Testament of Secrets.
[Reading] “At birth (or, Otherwise, whenever
Identification With the present-time born-condition Is
Presumed), All That Was Realized Previously (or, Otherwise,
Priorly) Recedes Into The Unconscious and Subconscious
Background (Of the deeper personality), and all that Was
Previously (or, Otherwise, Priorly) Released Returns (In One
or Another Manner, and To One or Another Degree) To The
Immediate Surface Of Direct (perceptual and conceptual)
Awareness (or the Conscious mind, or body-mind, of the gross
I am not altogether clear. In Your Relinquishment of Your
State of the “Bright”, was there also a full Relinquishment
of the deeper personality?
SRI DA AVABHASA: A full Relinquishment of everything, all
progressively forgotten, complete identification with the
gross manifestation. By the time I went to college, that had
been completely done.
KANYA NAVANEETA: So at the time of that college event,
then, there was the re-beginning…
SRI DA AVABHASA: In My junior year, yes.
KANYA NAVANEETA: At that point there was the re-awakening
of Your memory, or understanding …
SRI DA AVABHASA: The fundamental awareness, not
KANYA NAVANEETA: Of both Your Prior Condition and Your
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes, but then progressively
revealedall about the deeper personality, all about
the Nature of My Work altogether. There were many
Revelations up to the Vedanta Temple Event and many after. I
have described the progress in My own case as True
Heart-Master in The Dawn Horse Testament. Much of the
fullest awareness of My Nature and Work and the import of it
altogether was Revealed in the years after the Vedanta
Temple incident. All of it was accomplished there, but the
Revelations to the mind so that It could be spoken fully and
clearly were progressive, as I have explained and as I have
clearly Demonstrated in all the years before now, all the
years previous to My Divine Emergence here.
KANYA SUPRITHI: Sri Gurudev, this Relinquishment that You
Speak of was entirely necessary, because the Way of the
Heart was made from that Sadhana that You Did. There was no
special advantageexcept the Ultimate Advantage. And
the Sadhana that You Did is the same sadhana that is Your
Calling to all of us.
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is required of everyone, the
KANYA SUPRITHI: The Ultimate was there, but not given as
an Advantage. The real Work had to be done.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Exactly, and it was very real Work, not
a jokein some ultimate sense you could say it was a
joke, but the ordeal was very real, experientially very
KANYA SUPRITHI: And that is how the Way of the Heart was
made by You for all of us.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Exactly.
KANYA NAVANEETA: Sri Gurudev, Vivekananda would not have
had any experience of “the Thumbs”, because there had not
been a previous establishment in the seventh stage.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes. It is My unique Sign.
KANYA NAVANEETA: So His principal Samadhi was the
experience of fifth stage conditional nirvikalpa
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes.
KANYA NAVANEETA: This Gift of “the Thumbs” that we have
received is Your Grace.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Mine.
KANYA NAVANEETA: And it has never been done before.
SRI DA AVABHASA: No. The Blessing of the “Bright” fully
Manifested throughout the conditional domain is My unique
Sign. “The Thumbs” is an extension of It.
KANYA TRIPURA: Beloved, this Samadhi of “the Thumbs”
could not occur until the Divine had Manifested Most
Perfectly in human Form. It was not a possibility before the
SRI DA AVABHASA: No. It could not occur before. People
have experienced various forms of what is called “Spiritual
descent”, but not “the Thumbs”, not the full Divine
KANYA TRIPURA: The Divine Descent is not about the Circle
of the body-mind, but about the Divine Pressing down …
SRI DA AVABHASA: Imposing.
KANYA TRIPURA: Yes, imposing, and then taking over the
Yogic process of submission to the Divine.
SRI DA AVABHASA: My devotees do not experience “the
Thumbs”, or My fullest Manifestation, merely by experiencing
natural energies coursing down and around the body, not even
by merely experiencing My Spiritual Presence somehow or
other felt in the body, but only by that submission, utterly
discarded in My Presence to the point of Awakening to the
Witness-Position. In that case, the transition can be made
from maturity in the third developmental stage of the Way of
the Heart directly to the sixth developmental stage. If ones
Realization is merely a matter of energies or My Presence
somehow felt in the frontal line, the true Awakening cannot
occur that early. Then the Yoga must continue into the
fourth developmental stage of the Way of the Heart, perhaps
even the fifth developmental stage.
Because of the Nature of My Work and Influence in the
lives of My devotees, it is eminently possiblemost
likely, in the general case, if the frontal Yoga I have
given you is truly donein the general case it is most
likely for the transition to be made to the Perfect Practice
at maturity in the third developmental stage of the Way of
The Kanyas have demonstrated this, but also they have had
many experiences of the ascending kind. In fact they have
done forms of the ascending sadhana.
KANYA TRIPURA: Only to return, because the body has
certain aspects. But then we were able to make the fill
transition, because we had practiced many other forms and
also had experienced many forms of ascending
SRI DA AVABHASA: Even in the frontal Yoga in My Company
ascending experiences are very likely because the circuit is
continuous, the Circle exists. Even in the frontal pressure
ascending phenomena are generated. The question is not,
should you do the specific sadhana in the ascending stages,
in developmental stage four and perhaps developmental stage
five. It is a question in each individual case, and the
answer must be seen on the basis of the characteristics of
ones sadhana. There cannot be true Awakening to the
Witness-Position without at least maturity at developmental
stage three of the Way of the Heart. The vehicle must be
purified, the submission must be made. It is not a matter of
experiences only. The real practice must be done.
Therefore, the circuit of the body-mind must endure the
Yoga, at least in the form of the practice of developmental
stage three to maturity.
KANYA SUPRITHI: Sri Gurudev, I was quite astounded when I
had the experience of fifth stage conditional nirvikalpa
samadhi. I had not expected anything of that sort of
experience, at all. I had just been practicing at maturity
in level three, basically the holding of attention at the
SRI DA AVABHASA: That is the practice at level four. The
“holding” at the Ajna Door is an ascending practice. Perhaps
it was happening spontaneously.
KANYA SUPRITHI: It was happening spontaneously and for a
SRI DA AVABHASA: The Yoga of practicing stage three is in
KANYA SUPRITHI: I was practicing in the Circle, but in
fullest meditation there was this holding at the Ajna Door.
I was going to say that in my experience of “the Thumbs”, I
did not experience it exactly as “thumbs” in particular.
SRI DA AVABHASA: That is just My own description of its
characteristics, as I experienced it even as a child, even
as an infant. I used the term “the Thumbs” to describe the
Spiritual process altogether. It is just a name, a word,
that I came up with when I was a very tiny little boy. By
using that word I was describing My primitive experience as
an infant. The particular sign that you might describe in
the same fashion is not necessarily the full Spiritual
descent, but the fundamental sign of the Samadhi of “the
Thumbs” that I have described is characteristic of My
devotees in general.
KANYA SUPRITHI: I was so certain that this experience was
the full Samadhi of “the Thumbs”, even though thumbs
themselves were not felt. It felt to me more like what I
would describe as a beam.
SRI DA AVABHASA: The description of “the Thumbs” that I
developed when I was a child came over Me spontaneously when
I was an infant as a primitive description. This is how I
experienced it. It would come over Me spontaneously, at
random moments, usually when I was apart from others, lying
in My room, lying in bed, whatever. It is the description of
an infant. Suddenly this gagging would occur, and it felt
like a hand all made of thumbs, with no fingers, pushing
itself down from above My head, down into My face and My
throat. There was a gagging sensation associated with it
from the time I was an infant, an actual gagging, as if a
big handful of thumbs was being pushed down into My
Therefore, I have retained that description ever since.
But what I am describing is the total event, as it may also
be experienced by any of My devotees. (inaudible here) And
those fundamentals (inaudible) relative to the experience of
Brahmacharini Shawnee told Me that the size of My head
changed by several inches after My Divine Emergence.
BRAHMACHARINI SHAWNEE: It was twenty-three inches before
and twenty-four inches after.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Which makes My head two feet around!
KANYA TRIPURA: When You spoke of the deeper personality,
the hidden personality, I was reflecting on a particular
period of my life with You, the last year, especially the
last eight months.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Up to the present time?
KANYA TRIPURA: Yes.
SRI DA AVABHASA: You see how I deal with the Kanyas.
Tripura was sent away from here, released from the Free
Renunciate Order, the level six of practice, the Kanya
Order. She resided at the Mountain Of Attention for four
months, and she was here under similar discipline before she
left. Any impediments in the Kanyas are dealt with very
directly. Their relationship to Me is not a game, not a
girlfriend business, not a householder business. There was
something necessary for her to do in her practice altogether
that required that particular discipline for a period of
time, and she only returned here early in December.
KANYA TRIPURA: It is really quite profound, because I
felt the body-mind released from the memory of this grosser
personality. And then I was feeling Your description of the
deeper personality, which is summarized also in the
root-contraction of separate self sense.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Which should be the next to govern. You
here gathered with Me are being governed by the grosser
personality. The deeper personality does not come very much
to the front in your case. It is suppressed, covered over,
by the grosser inclinations and the grosser identification.
The next thing to occur when you do significant foundation,
or purifying, sadhana is that the deeper personality comes
more to the front and begins to govern the grosser
personality. That is not ultimate Realization, but it is the
next step, and a necessary step. In fact it is part of the
transition to the seeing stages. The equipment for seeing Me
is brought to the front by virtue of your hearing Me, by
virtue of your having done the true listening sadhana,
handled your ordinary life-business, gone through the
purifying process of true listening, and come to the point
of true hearing and demonstrating it with real
To move on from there to level two and the seeing stages
is a kind of transition in which the deeper personality
begins to come more to the front and to govern the grosser
personality. There is a greater Governor even than
thatI, My Self, am the Governor, the One with Whom you
are in Communionbut that foundation sadhana having
been done long enough through the beginning process, then
you are available to Me through the structures of the deeper
personality. Such sadhana brings to the front your
capability not merely for reception of Me in the body itself
but for surrender to Me as the body and for relinquishing
the governing power of the grosser personality, to such a
degree that your deeper motivation and surrender can come to
That process is fundamental to the seeing stages. This is
another reason why the listening-hearing process must be
KANYA TRIPURA: Beloved, I felt during the time when I was
at the Mountain Of Attention that You drove me even to the
root of that deeper personality. You write in The Dawn Horse
Testament that “Each and every born lifetime Requires many
(even “ordinary”) helping associations (Even “Carried Over”
From lifetimes past), and Every Kind Of Greater or Great
Growth and Greater or Great Realization Requires Great Good
Company and Great (Divine) Help, or Else The “Background”
Strengths (or All The Virtues and Realizations Hidden or
Forgotten In The Subconscious and Unconscious Deep) Will Not
Re-Surface, or Otherwise Come Forward, To
SRI DA AVABHASA: There are all kinds of help in any
manifested lifetime. Your parents help, all kinds of
associated help, educationthese things are supposed to
help. For the development of anyone, the security of anyone,
the space for anyone to grow, much help is required, much
ordinary helpnot to mention extraordinary Help,
especially for the greatest transitions and transformations
KANYA TRIPURA: In my association with what I felt to be
more the root of the deeper personality, rather than
SRI DA AVABHASA: The root of the deeper personality is
the causal being, seated in the right side of the heart. The
context of the deeper personality is in the center of the
heart. The place and circumstance of the dominance of the
grosser personality is in the left side of the heart.
Therefore, all transitions, all growth in the Way of the
Heart, can be measured in terms of the steps or stages or
positions of the heart. Everything extended from the
positions of the heart is involved, but it all can be seen
in the plane of the heart itself. The grosser personality on
the left, the subtler manifestation of the deeper
personality in the center, the root of the deeper
personality on the right. And beyond that the Ultimate
Nature, Beyond the heart on the right.
KANYA TRIPURA: I even had direct visionary experience of
Sister Christine. Of course, I have a very direct knowledge
of India and all the details of living in India.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Although you have not been there in this
KANYA TRIPURA: Not in this lifetime.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Her picture is in these books here.
[Sri Gurudev holds up the book.]
DEVOTEE: I have seen these photographs, and the gross
personalities of both are so similar.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes. The deeper personality is
manifested via the gross personality.
DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, would that always necessarily be
so, that the form would be so similar?
SRI DA AVABHASA: There are generally some similarities,
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: Beloved Lord, that was also similar to
my question. If I understand it correctly, then the strategy
one might choosethat is, vital, peculiar, or
solidwould be related to the deeper personality?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes. It is not chosen, however. It is
spontaneously manifested. You may think you are choosing it
or that details in your gross life are governing it, but the
deeper personality enforces it.
KANYA SUPRITHI: I was feeling the extraordinary,
incomprehensible Work You Do when You deal with someones
deeper personality. I have heard it described as “Yoga
Maya”, to use the traditional term for it. Sometimes Your
devotees around You are only witnessing Your Divine Play,
yet they progress in the Way of the Heart. But then there
are other people You deal with directly when You do this
Work, this “Yoga Maya”, and it totally disarms the character
of any foothold. It is as if the person is dead and has
SRI DA AVABHASA: Why should you be denied such suffering?
I was not!
KANYA SUPRITHI: It is not suffering. It is Your
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is suffering nevertheless, but it is
also about My very Work with you. Yes, there is necessary
Prapatti in it, no foothold, no comprehension, no limitation
to be surrendered. The Catholic Christian tradition makes
reference to the “dark night of the soul”. It is the same
kind of thingno control over it, no ability even to
find a place of Grace in the moment of greatest
purification. Just surrender is required.
Somehow you must find the resource of your devotion to Me
without a great deal of information and Blessed visions and
so forth. You must find the resource of your devotion to Me
that will allow you to go through that dark passage when you
have no other resource, no information, no guarantees, apart
from the devotion to Me itself.
It is purification, it is a great wash, it is a burning.
It seems as if you have no advantages, but there is just
that naked advantage that is your devotion to Me itself.
Even that may seem to be in doubt somehow, but you
And so, in the case of My devotees every day, all the
problems that must be endured and passed through and burned
up every day, it is fundamentally the same kind of thing.
You must be willing to endure it. That is what the Way of
the Heart requires, that burning up, that surrender to Me,
that persistence in devotion to Me and real work and
maintaining a basic characteristic of sanity and devotion to
Me in your daily life, even though you are going through
this profound ordeal. That is it.
KANYA SUPRITHI: This is very interesting, because You are
talking about rock-bottom self here!
SRI DA AVABHASA: Rock-bottom self is what it is really
all about. All the rest is superficial.
KANYA SUPRITHI: And where you have nothing, no reserve in
yourself other than what you would have at death.
SRI DA AVABHASA: And death is what is
requiredego-death. Just surrender to Me, allowing the
One Who is Great to be the Governor of the process even
though you do not know anything about it. All you have left
is just that string of devotion to Me itself, no guarantees,
no thoughts, no visions, no Blessedness. You suffer the
purification. This is a characteristic of the daily life of
all My devotees, frequently occurring, and that is what it
takesa continuous submission to Me, no dramatization,
no aberrated life. Endure it, persist, discipline yourself
relative to the darkness of the necessary
purificationthat is what is required. That is how the
great transitions occur. That is how the real process
develops. Not by your knowing this and that, your egoic
self-possession and self-“giving”not that. Just by
devotion given to Me, surrender to Me, trust in Me, even
when you do not have a leg to stand on.
KANYA TRIPURA: Beloved, what I wanted to say was that I
felt that Christine had wanted to have a different life with
SRI DA AVABHASA: Everyone wants to have different life
with Menot the real dose of surrender to Me, the
strain of tapas, the difficulties to be overcome, but some
sort of a glad, smiling, idealistic ride. But that is not
the real process. The real process is a profound ordeal, and
you are obliged, by your devotion to Me, to live sanely,
remain as My devotee, go through the process, endure
purification. That is it. Never cease to be My devotee
simply because there are difficulties to be endured. Do not
cop out. Persist! That is the test, and that is what the Way
of the Heart is really all about. And that is how the great
purifications, the great transitions, occur.
KANYA TRIPURA: What occurred for me could simply be
described as the most profound love and need for You that
could be humanly imagined.
SRI DA AVABHASA: And that is the only prayer that exists
in the dark ordeal.
KANYA TRIPURA: That was it. And it only intensified, and
I only feel it growing more now. When you say the deeper
personality has to govern the grosser personality and do the
sadhana of submission to You, I feel that love at the root
SRI DA AVABHASA: All must be burned upPrapatti,
just give it up. Have nothing but trust, nothing but
devotion to Me. Everything must be done, given up,
surrendered to Me, passed through. Such is the disposition
of My devotee, just that. This is no cultic ride, no mere
amusement. It is religious realism, the real process
embraced, accepted, endured. And there are plenty of Blessed
days, too. But it is not only those Blessed days that are
the Way of the Heart. The Way of the Heart for the most part
is a profound purification. Its transformations require
utter surrender, without a leg to stand onblack!
But you tend to seek again, to find some way to feel
good, to console yourselfa little sex, a little
amusement, a little reading, a little conversation, a little
socializing, and you let yourself off the hook. All your
reactivity, all your nonsensical seeking, comes into play
again, and that is how you bypass transformation and bypass
the true purifying process of the Way of the Heart. The more
the heart-motive comes to the front, the more willing you
are to endure this life without a leg to stand on and go
through real transformation. The rest is silliness. And,
talk, as much as anything else, is how you avoid the
I presume you have all felt such surrender, and I also
presume that you have all felt some mechanism in yourself
that seeks to avoid it. That strategy is what makes you
mediocre. Whenever you choose not to avoid the ordeal and
your endure it, a purification occurs. Some shit is
released, and the purification does not have to be done
againnot in quite the same way anyway.
You must stop taking vacations. You must realize that
real sadhana is done without a leg to stand on. This does
not mean that you should dramatize. Dramatization is how you
DEVOTEE: It seems that the typical form of surrender to
You still stays within the egos frame of reference.
SRI DA AVABHASA: The mediocre sign definitely does. That
is what I mean. You introduce your reactivity, your
desiring, your motives of consolation, your blab-blab,
talkity-talkity-talkity, socializing, sexing, a little
stuffing the bucket with food, whatever. You use all kinds
of means to desensitize yourself to the darkness of the
ordeal of real surrender. And this is how you prolong your
beginners life. You always introduce a leg to stand on.
DEVOTEE: This is a silly statement, but I wonder how I
could even function in that surrender.
SRI DA AVABHASA: You are always capable of functioning,
always. You do not have to become a stupid fool just because
you are enduring a purifying process, not at all. You are
fully capable of functioning, serving, being rational and
human with others. That is in fact your obligation. You must
maintain the discipline. That is how you keep the purifying
process in place, not by looking for a way out of it. “I am
having a difficult dayI may as well get laid”, that
kind of thing. A difficult day is no time to get laid or
indulge in any consolation. That is a time to endure it.
When things brighten up, when some congeniality, some
energy, is manifested, then you can do some more ordinary
things maybe, but still Yogically, rightly.
To live rightly is an art, and it requires true
seriousness. This is just how it is. I cannot relieve you of
this obligation. That is the practice of the Way of the
Heart. Everything passingthat is the place you are in
here. It is all just that. If you are sensitive at all, that
is how it iseverything passing, all wounds, everything
ending. Surrender to Me is your obligation. That is the
place you are in here. But you are indulging yourself here
in this place to console yourself and to de-sensitize
yourself to your real situation and the work you have to do.
That is the game My devotees are playing one by one, and
that is what they must overcome.
KANYA SUPRITHI: Sri Gurudev, last year You spoke of the
“free fall” in You. In these moments of most tapas where we
do not have a leg to stand on and we are free falling
SRI DA AVABHASA: And looking in all directions for a
legsome distraction, some consolation, some dimension
of your search to desensitize you to this free fall. That is
what you all do. It is a tendency even in the advanced and
the ultimate stages of life. It is dealt with at a more
profound level in those stages, but it persists. The
self-contraction is at the root of it always.
The real process is an in-depth process of surrender
without a leg to stand on. It is real tapas. And the right
practice when tapas is closing in on you is not to react and
seek and console yourself but to endure it, to maintain a
discipline, to practice devotion to Me, to be straight in
daily life. Do not dramatize. If you rightly do it, apart
from your confession in your intimate groups with your
friends nobody will even notice that you are going through
But you think that as soon as it is difficult, it is time
to dramatize, time to lay it onto your friends, time to
console yourself, time to indulge yourself, time to
desensitize yourself. That is the technique you use as an
ego-based worldling, and that has no relevance to the
process you must endure. It just puts it off. That is how
you prolong the beginnings, and that is what you must
outgrow. It is a sign of maturing in the Way of the Heart
that you do not indulge in such consoling efforts and do not
dramatize. That is maturity.
By such maturity you keep straight in the midst of the
tapas. You are having a bad day, feeling rather fragile, so
you want to take a vacation? No! Maintain the discipline of
surrender to Me, maintain the discipline of service to Me,
do not change a jot of your behavior, do not dramatize with
others, do not seek to indulge yourself. Be without a leg to
stand on. Endure it. That is how you will grow. Abandoning
that position, bypassing it through consolation and all the
rest of it, you desensitize yourself and fail to grow, and
you prolong the beginning.
There is nothing I can do about it. I cannot lay down
some absolute law to prevent all dramatization. I can just
tell you how it is and what is really required. You will
take as long to grow as you are pleased to do. It is your
business. Bypass the transforming purifying event and you
are building time into your beginning practice, building
time into your practice altogether. It is entirely up to
KANYA SUPRITHI: Sri Gurudev, I was feeling that this
matter of tapas is what you have Called us to do.
SRI DA AVABHASA: You need to be a renunciate in ordinary
life. That is My Calling to each and every one of My
KANYA SUPRITHI: So then, when we are feeling that moment,
we can trust You. Not in any conventional sense, but trust
You as our Master.
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is not about trusting Me to let you
off the hook! It is trusting Me in the midst of enduring the
real process, with no gestures to let yourself off the hook.
Such sadhana goes deep. It makes profound purification, and
that is what is necessary, instead of your abiding in this
superficial orientation, dramatizing, seeking, consoling
yourself. That is not it. That is being mediocre,
insensitive, and a beginner forever.
[to Kanya Tripura] Do you have any more to say?
Is there anything left over?
KANYA TRIPURA: The only thing I felt is that You had me
literally undone through the years, any want or desire for
the world, any want or desire for a social life, any want or
desire for a conventional life with another. That ordeal
brought me to the most primitive need and love that I have
SRI DA AVABHASA: I brought you to the holy place where
there are some things you just do not do. And you finally
became willing to not do them. There are some things of
Supreme Value that you must demonstrate the valuing of,
instead of being a fool and consoling yourself, distracting
yourself, and desensitizing yourself.
And so it must be with all My devotees, then. The Way of
the Heart is one crisis after the next. If you abandon the
practice, what you will get is one crisis after the
next!but there will be no fruitfulness to such crisis.
Suffering is inevitable in any case, difficulty is
inevitable in any case, so why abandon the arms and the
context of practice? Suffering is not a loophole. You only
get the suffering without the advantage.
People everywhere in the world are merely suffering. My
devotees are still suffering but with great Advantage, and
making conditional existence a real process that serves.
That is the only difference. It is not that people in the
world are suffering and My devotees are not. If you think
you are not suffering, you are a cultist in My Company. If
you do not want to suffer, if you do not want to endure the
ordeal, then you are being a superficial fool, and you are
still a worldling. To avoid suffering is the technique of
Therefore, do not play it fast and loose with your
personal practice of the Way of the Heart, and do not play
it fast and loose with the institution, the culture, the
community, and the mission of My devotees. See your
dramatization, and see that it just bothers everyone and
undermines the work you must do and forestalls the day of
your significant maturity.
DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, You say that in the higher realms
time occurs differently. I understand You to be saying that
what appears to be a certain number of years…
SRI DA AVABHASA: In the very highest realms all are in
Samadhi but conditionally kept in place. They are not going
to dinner and the movies and living like fools! They are in
a state of absorption, conditionally maintained. It is not a
matter of time, then, is it? Time appears perhaps to others
who are observing them, who are contemplating them or
“considering” their existence, but the implications of
observation from a lesser place are another matter.
DEVOTEE: Is it possible that Vivekananda could have been
in the higher realms a long time relative to Earth time?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes. And?
DEVOTEE: After Vivekanandas physical death in this realm,
could He have been associated with other Sages in the higher
realms, other Realizers?
SRI DA AVABHASA: They do not bother one another there.
He was not busy being somebody in that transition. He was
not manifesting as separateness. He was done.
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, your description of Divine
Translation as the Outshining of everything has some
foreshadowing in the traditional descriptions of the end of
a yuga, when everything disappears in Siva. Can the Kali
Yuga be the time when everything is being Divinely
Translated as opposed to the traditional view that
everything will be destroyed?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Of course!
DEVOTEE: I am also wondering if it is possible that
anyone in Your blood line, any of the ancestors of Your
grosser personality, had contact with Vivekananda in the
SRI DA AVABHASA: In principle it is possible. There is no
evidence that suggests it, but in principle it is
DEVOTEE: Vivekanandas mother had a vision before His
birth that Siva was going to be born to her. As a boy
Vivekananda was called “Virashwara”, meaning “hero of
heroes”, which is also a name of Siva. This is the same
manifested quality that You have.
SRI DA AVABHASA: How could it be otherwise?
DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, I feel that You have taken over the
Vehicle of Vivekananda in all respects, body and mind and
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes, that is true. I have.
DEVOTEE: Understanding that we must always speak from our
own experience and intuition, do You feel it is useful or
even necessary for us to communicate these Confessions to
the general public, always in an appropriate manner?
SRI DA AVABHASA: What kind of question is that? Of course
you must communicate My Confessions, and say they are such.
Soyou are the limit that is supposed to make the
DEVOTEE: At various times You have indicated that Your
devotees were not ready to really communicate this
Confession, because our understanding was too limited. And
at certain times You have asked us to stop …
SRI DA AVABHASA: I asked that you not make cultic
nonsense out of My Life.
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: Sri Gurudev, during the Teaching years
You very actively participated in the individual lives of
Your devotees in many different ways, but always directly
reflecting people to themselves. Sometimes this manner of
Your Working has been referred to as Your Interference with
the ego, or interrupting the egos act. How will this
essential activity of Spiritual life occur when You are
Retired into Your Spiritual Seclusion?
SRI DA AVABHASA: This question is already answered in The
Dawn Horse Testament, and My Retirement is supposed to have
happened years ago. Now you have My Word to deal with, and
you have the fully elaborated practice of the Way of the
Heart. In the Teaching years people only very gradually, if
at all, assumed practices, but now you have the full range
of practices to reflect you to yourself. You also have the
community to serve you in the same regard. I have said all
of this, and it is what you are supposed to be doing. The
Teaching years ended seven years ago. How long is it going
to take you to find that out?
I have stated it very clearly and in pretty much the same
words in The Dawn Horse Testament. And by the way, I just
reflected you to yourself!
Who practiced in the Teaching years? There was some
practicing, but it was rather mediocre, rather piecemeal,
not very detailed. Now you have the practice completely
elaborated, completely Given in every detail. You have your
service to Me and your relationships with one another to
reflect you to yourself. My Mere PresenceMy Merely
Standing here, My Merely Sitting here, My Merely Being
herereflects you to yourself. The Teaching years have
been replaced by all of that.
Why think that for the Way of the Heart to be
authenticated, to be manifested in the form of all My
devotees beyond My physical Lifetime, that somehow I must be
blackmailed into continuing to do what I did before? By My
“Consideration” I made the completeness of all that is
necessary for your growth, for your real practice?
Now all of that is Given. It is not that I have separated
from You. I have Given you all of that. You manifest and
implement it! I am simply here. I am not dissociated from My
devotees and will not be. Come to Me for My Blessing,
equipped with all that I have Given you to serve your
practice of the Way of the Heart, including your
participation in your collective responsibilitiesnot
just your personal ones, dissociated from the institution,
the culture, the community, and the mission of all My
devotees. No. Participate in all that. It is your obligation
to make it happen, to make it all a good gift to Me, good
Therefore, I have replaced My efforts in the Teaching
years with all of that, which you now have fully. There is
no need for any casual chat between us or for Me to assume
the position of Submission to you as I did before. There is
no need for it, because I have replaced it with all the
Gifts I have Given you.
DEVOTEE: Beloved Sri Gurudev, You said earlier that some
of the beings that have moved into the higher stages in the
upper planes are absorbed in Samadhi …
SRI DA AVABHASA: In the ultimate placenot the
Ultimate Place Beyond, but the as-far-as-you-can-get place,
DEVOTEE: That brought up a question in me. How is it if a
being is so absorbed in that Samadhi, though conditionally,
that the being moves beyond it to something else?
SRI DA AVABHASA: By embracing Me.
DEVOTEE: By the Attraction of You?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes, and by doing the real tapas, the
real sadhana, that breaks through the loop.
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: So even though the being is absorbed,
there is the capability to feel deeper?
SRI DA AVABHASA: OF COURSE THERE IS! THATS A QUESTION?
Oinked into place in your Samadhi by all kinds of things in
the body-mindand you ask Me can one go beyond it?
DEVOTEE: From my limited point of view and understanding,
I would imagine that the state of Samadhi would be so full
that one would already be gone in that Samadhi.
SRI DA AVABHASA: There you are, absorbed but
conditionally present. This is why Vivekananda had to be
called down to provide a Vehicle for Me.
DEVOTEE: That explains it, then. Thank You. The greatest
thing is that this is why You have Incarnated Your whole
Being into the conditional plane. That is what makes it
possible for someone even to be in that state and be
Attracted beyond it to You.
SRI DA AVABHASA: That is it exactly.
KANYA NAVANEETA: Sri Gurudev, You have said that the
Samadhi of “the Thumbs” was absolutely unique to You. It
never appeared before.
SRI DA AVABHASA: It is the Samadhi of My
KANYA NAVANEETA: Can it be said that the other Samadhi
that is absolutely unique to You is Sahaj Samadhi and the
Regeneration of Amrita Nadi?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Sahaj Samadhi in the seventh stage of
KANYA NAVANEETA: And the regeneration of Amrita Nadi?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Absolutely, yes.
KANYA NAVANEETA: Those two Samadhis are…
SRI DA AVABHASA: Unique to Me. Apart from that, there are
intuitions of the seventh stage in a certain disposition of
the sixth stage “Point of View”, but not accomplished.
KANYA NAVANEETA: Fifth stage conditional nirvikalpa
samadhi is evidenced in other traditions.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Yes, there have certainly been various
forms of fifth stage conditional nirvikalpa samadhi
manifested in the traditions by seekers. They are not My
Samadhis, however, not the Great Samadhis, Manifested by Me
and Given to You.
DEVOTEE: Beloved Sri Gurudev, I have another question. In
terms of a Murti-Gurus appearing in the Way of the Heart,
would there be unique signs, for example the gross physical
vehicles being utterly conformed to You?
SRI DA AVABHASA: That is absolutely necessary.
DEVOTEE: You have obviously Demonstrated the Signs of the
full range of the seventh stage of life. Would a Murti-Guru
become fully functional, with the body conformed to You, at
the beginning of the seventh stage of life, in Divine
Transfiguration, or more into the stage of Divine
SRI DA AVABHASA: It could be at any stage, depending on
who is available, who has the greatest signs, and who is
truly conformed to Me. It obviously must be a seventh stage
Realizer as a devotee of Mine, fully conformed to Me,
absorbed in Me, transformed even bodily by that
DEVOTEE: And truly all Your devotees in future time,
maybe even in this lifetime, who are moving into the seventh
stage would necessarily go through the three stages of the
seventh stage of life previous to Divine Translation into
Your Divine Self-Domain?
SRI DA AVABHASA: One must go through all the stages
previous to Divine Translation into My Domain. When someone
is acknowledged as My Murti-Guru is another matter. It could
be at any of those stages, but truly conformed to Me
DEVOTEE: And the sign of that would be the complete
transparency of the gross physical and the deeper
SRI DA AVABHASA: Absolutely.
ANOTHER DEVOTEE: My Lord, I have a question about Your
SRI DA AVABHASA: My Seclusion, yes. Not separation.
DEVOTEE: Not separation or withdrawal, but always
SRI DA AVABHASA: Just free to speak, to Do the Work I Do
spontaneously, not impeded in any way by your imposition,
and totally available to My devotees who are prepared to
come into My physical Company when they are on retreat in My
Company, or otherwise given consent to come into My Company
because of the signs of their advancement.
DEVOTEE: I was reading in this new booklet, Love of Me
Must Be the Measure of Your Intimacies. In Your first Talk
heremay I read it to You, Sri Gurudev?
SRI DA AVABHASA: Fine.
DEVOTEE: [reading] “Dont you see the tears in My
Eyes in all these occasions of Darshan of Me? My life with
you is not a matter of conventional religion. It is a
profoundly feeling matter. I Receive people as they are
completely. That is where the tears come from. My
relationship with you is not a casual amusement, a
formality. I am totally invested in My devotees. I feel
their circumstance and Bless them in it and for the
transformation of it. And I endure their suffering, their
limitations, what they must go through, and the
extraordinary vulnerability of our real circumstance, which,
perhaps, you are not really sensitive to most of the
You are still utterly invested in Your devotees.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Absolutely! It is just a matter of
breaking your connection with conventional religion, that is
all. It does not mean that My Work has changed.
DEVOTEE: Nothing has changed.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Of course not! The Way of the Heart is
as I have Given it.
DEVOTEE: You still even endure us.
SRI DA AVABHASA: Absolutely.
HEART CONVERSION TALK
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